Cops win, Sin City loses dance permit

I had posted this the day before the council "hearing" - on the hive - my feelings have not changed.

As I am sure you remember, Janice Keating was the one vote against the suspension on their license, citing the same criteria I do -

Personally, as I have said before, if I had my personal way - I would not have ANY clubs downtown - and in my little perfect world there would be no alcohol either. But - I must think in the terms that are best and realistic for our community. Business is needed here. And what we need more than closing down Sin City is somehow getting Sin City to be more cooperative.

If I was the owner, I would be pretty flippant to police too. I am sure that another Civil Rights Activsit or organization has more than likely advised them, as I would, that this situation would be legally actionable - I would take on the case, counting on settlement for discrimination - as I cited before - black owner, black club, and black genre.

Wendy Byrd the current president of the NAACP (instead of me) could have said it better then she did - but that's ok. I'll be there again - watch as the council members whisper in each other's ears and don't listen.

This is what the MPD is afraid of. Possibly rightly so, but we need the business and we need the jobs, so we can just deal with it ---->

http://www.youtube.com/v/X6FoiruUt5w&rel=1

Thank God for this --------->

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech

I think the City Council as well as the Modesto Police Department need to take this far more seriously. Seriously.

Robert Stanford for Modesto City Council Seat 1

http://www.myspace.com/stanford4modesto

This is the piece of the newspaper story that I found most interesting:

"Councilmen Garrad Marsh and Will O'Bryant voted to let the club keep the permit.

Councilwoman Janice Keating, who a month ago warned her colleagues against punishing a particular style of entertainment, left the meeting early and did not vote on the revocation."

I feel like Keating did the right thing by standing up for her beliefs and not voting. This could become a very volatile issue with so many sides in the mix. There is the issue of discrimination, but there is also the issue of poor security at Sin City. I wrote last year about an incident at Tymeless where their security team dragged and abused a man outside of their club as I and many others watched.

I hate to see anyone lose the opportunity to own a thriving business, but they should have to follow the rules. I am not saying that I am on any particular side here because so many factors have to be weighed. Frankly, I find it sad that this has gone so far.

Thank you for your input and have a wonderful day.

-Mojo
Editor

The whole situation is sad. There are rules and the rules were broken. SinCity even said we complied for HALF the time of the suspension. They should have complied for ALL the time. I think police as well as city council are tired of the issue of downtown night clubs. No one is bending to create a workable situation. People are playing tug-o-war. All the nightclubs in town have been getting hasseled not just SinCity. Police have been closing streets down on big money nights, making it harder for people to get to nightclubs. I don't think this is a racial issue. Frankly, SinCity left the door open to losing their liscense by not following the rules. Stick with the problem and find a way to solve it rather than saying discrimination. We need to find a long term solution.
Downtown night clubs generate a lot of money to the city. If the police close all these businesses down the city will hurt by this. People want places to go at night. There needs to be something for everyone. Really, SinCity should try working with other business' and help get rules instated that help everyone not just one side. Truly, it is unfortunate that any business had to lose a permit.

Any thoughts on the four bars that aren't renewing their dance permits - Velocity, Galletto's, Hero's and Fez? How about The Nines finally getting its permit?

Personally, I think that the council and the City of Modesto as a whole needs to not only be equal in the justice they are handing out - but they need to really think about the bigot reputation this City has on a Nation Wide scale - A good first step would be to have a definition of dancing that makes sense to people without people lobbing the possibility that if you are bobbing your head to an am radio song you are guilty of the crime of "Dancing".

Robert Stanford
Candidate for Modesto City Council Seat 1
http://www.myspace.com/stanford4modesto

If I owned a business that did not depend on a dance permit to make a good profit and it meant the police not harassing me, I would not renew mine either. The police dept. makes it hard on all business that have dance permits. Let's face if they could shut down all nightclubs they would. Maybe, The Nines got lucky! It also, makes the PD look ike they aren't against nightclubs if they throw a bone now and then!!

I can see that. Last night Sin City owner Rosalind Mitchell drew a comparison between her club and the Police Department's decision to give The Nines a permit despite several dancing citations. She was trying to get across that The Nines got a green light despite its violation of the dance rules, while she lost out.
But after the meeting, Police Lt. Ron Cloward said the only problems with The Nines have been dancing. Sin City, on the other hand, had its security issues in the summer.

I think if there is a perception that Modesto or the MPD is Racially Biased or Racist it is because some people quickly play the race card when they have no other ground to stand on. Sin City was given chances and for whatever reason they did not follow them. I think it is very irresponsible to throw out racism as the cause here. Why not just look at the facts.

I do think it is funny though that the paper mentioned Chris Ricci as lobbying for Sin City to lose their Permit. Duh!!!! It means more money for the Fat Cat if Sin City closes down. Please tell me that club promoters or owners are not in some position of influence with the City Council.

And finally I do not think it is brave for a council member to NOT vote on an issue. It is a cop out if anything. Your voice is heard when you Vote! She was elected for that reason.

One thing I noted in the article, that clubs with dance permits may have as many if sold out, 5000 people in attendance, thirteen venues before recent lack of renewal, MPD not up to manpower says the chief. MPD calls with thirteen were back to 2003 levels with only 3 clubs. Ok, seems attracting people to downtown, support of businesses, including the bead shops, art venues, eateries, over and above the dance permit venues, was the idea, of entertainment district. Gallo alone, can field 1285 in Rogers theatre. MAMA awards, the chamber of commerce director noted in favor of dancing, and also that entertainment, tourism, festivals, nightclubs, restaurants a half a billion dollar (493 million was citation used) industry in Stanislaus County, significant economic boon, and of course not lost too often, the 1.3 million dollar sales tax share to City of Modesto, vs. half million dollar overtime for downtown. Closure of Acupulco up McHenry article, noted the rather competitive business climate for restaurants in our area, and venue owner downtown reminded five have closed this year, that seems to be tough enough for restaurants and clubs to get people out so business is profitable. I'll leave the other issues noted to others, but does often enough seem to me, like an armed camp sometimes in downtown, such I'd actually often enough go home, see the nothing on TV, work to see if people still interested in attending the art walk we do each month, hoping this effort of downtown encourage people to visit the area, early evening hours, support artists, happy they aren't regulating art at this time.

In all fairness I think that anyone who shows up and voices an opinion has the ability to influence city council. Everytime one club breaks the rules it shortens the leash on other clubs. It would make sense to remove the problem. You are right though, using racism as a cause here is irresponsible. Don't stray from the issue. Keep the the problem in the public eye. Our PD needs to work with nightclubs to find a working solution. No nightclubs is not the answer.

Several people keep citing "security problems this summer" as a justification for Sin City losing their permit.

What security problems? Yes, the police identified concerns about their closing procedures, but the police also admit those problems have been fixed since August. In addition, the concerns the police had never materialized. Never mind that within the past year and a half other clubs in the same neighborhood have had numerous fights requiring police response, including stabbings, shootings, and riots, without any action taken on their dance permits.

And where does Chris Ricci get off slandering a business? To go to a public forum and state that Sin City was responsible for a stabbing and property damage when there is no evidence of that, much less proof is irresponsible at best.

Yes, Sin City had two dance violations. Dancing is personal expression that is protected by the first amendment of the US constitution. They cannot stop people from dancing without violating their rights. People were dancing there even when it was Tymeless and they had little soft jazz duos. It is only when they began attracting larger, and what one police officer described as "darker" crowds that the issues arose.

The city council was wrong and discriminatory in it actions last night.

Sin City has argued the police reached incorrect conclusions when they cited the club for dance permit violations in July.

That said, the "security problems" identified by police were:
An insufficient number of security personnel.
Not staffing security at the club's back door.
Not labeling security workers with shirts that said "Security."

The other things that appeared to frustrate police were a makeshift smoking area that put fences on 10th Street, a rushed closing process and what police perceived as a delay in buying equipment to link into a downtown ID scanning system.

There were a number of other permit violations, such as not posting an ABC permit. Mitchell last night described how the club corrected each of the violations.

I happen to work downtown on J st between 10th and 11th and have for close to two years. I have seen many a issue happen with many a club down there. I am in outside sales for a large company with a retail front that is open until 6pm 7 days a week. On many a weekend night I have had to bring the company vehicle back late after an event and have witnessed what happens downtown. In PARTICULAR since Tymeless turned to Sin City things have gotten worse and worse and let me tell you as a Caucasion Female who lives in a prodominatly black and hispanic neighborhood my views and personal experiances have nothing to do with racism. I have personally witnessed a shooting, more than 6 very large crowd fights and been harrassed by patrons of that particular club. When I park in the garage across from Fat Cat and have to walk to my car in the other garage I NEVER EVER have had those issues or felt afraid for my own safety. The Security at Fat Cat has always been Stellar. I wish I could say the same for Sin City. On any day of the week in the evening I have felt very safe to walk in front of or into The Nines alone and had no issues. The same goes for Skewers or Copper Rhino which are the other other places I go to on occation down there. However you couldnt pay me enough in the last several months to even walk in front of "Sin City" on a weekend night. When a 38 year old very outspoken secure woman is afraid to walk in front of a buisness something is very very wrong dont you think?

Yes the crowds danced at "Tymeless" to lovely Jazz music. But when that officer referred to the "Dark Crowd" I am assuming he is refering to the out of control younger set that wouldnt be caught dead dancing to Rose Mary Clooney, Ella Fitzgerald and the like.

So heres my Idea.. Let Sin City have a dance permit for Jazz Music only. See what kind of crowd goes in and has a great time. Betcha 100.00 bucks the problems will be nill!

Stephanie~Well behaved women rarely make history!

Lets look at the actual facts of the case here:

Sin City ignored repeated warnings from the police and only paid lip service to the fact that their dance permit was suspended.

As Chris Ricci said at the meeting – They did everything they could to stop dancing at their facility during the suspension except what would stop dancing at their facility – that is removing the DJs.

Sin City is a poorly run business that ignores the rules of the State and local governments on every level.

They don’t pay many of their employees – they get tips only. In case you didn’t know this that is illegal on many levels. Not only do the employees not pay federal income tax, but there is no employer taxes either, that means that Medicare and Social Security don’t get their money. There is also no workman’s comp. If you get hurt working at Sin City… you are screwed.

Sin City does not purchase their alcohol from liquor distributors as is required by ABC law, they buy it from Costco or the supermarket. The result of this is that the State Board of Equalization doesn’t know how much sales tax to expect. So they are in trouble with both of those entities in addition to the IRS. Why would you not buy from a distributor? That would be because you can’t afford to pay the bills you have outstanding so they won’t deliver to you.

They owe dozens of people thousands of dollars that they borrowed from them due to the mismanagement of their business. They have paid no one back.

This isn’t about race. This is about having a level playing field.

I challenge Sin City to prove me wrong.

Show us your liquor records that you have been purchasing your liquor legally.

Show us your payroll records that show you have been paying federal taxes.

Show us you have been paying the State Board of Equalization.

Pay back the thousands of dollars you owe people.

But they won’t. Because everything I have said is true.

The only racists out there are the people are defending Sin City.

Mayor Jim Ridenour didn't speak out before he voted to pull Sin City's dance permit Tuesday night, but yesterday, he told me the bar's owner didn't help her case when she described steps she took to comply with a one-month suspension.

Sin City owner Rosalind Mitchell explained she rearranged furniture and removed dance floors to discourage people from dancing during the club's suspension.

That told Ridenour Sin City no longer operated as a restaurant even though its liquor license defines it as one. Sin City carried over its dance permit and liquor license from a period when it was called Tymeless, a sit-down restaurant.

Concerns raised by the Police Department suggesting Sin City created a "volatile" atmosphere also stuck with Ridenour.

"I don't want any one or two places making it so people don't want to come downtown," he said.

Sin City can apply for a new dance permit in a year.

In attendence of my graduation ceremony of the Modesto Police Department's Citizen Academy Advance Class - I spoke with Chief of MPD Police Chief Roy Wasden and addressed some of my racial concerns.

Though I was very sad to see Sin City lose it's dance permit and further no one really step up to the plate to define how we can legally express ourselves and invoke our rights of freedom of expression - I came away with a couple of thoughts -

1. 2 minors were found inside the business while they were technically open - ABC violation
2. there were a few other violations that were suprisingly committed DURING their suspension.
3. Why did they feel that the transaction with Federation for the Signing was worth losing their dance permit - I hope that was a good deal for them.
4. Did they plan the move from dining/drinks to hip-hop/hyphy dance club all along?

I will dance when I want and how I want wherever I want and go to jail for it - hopefully I will get some press for it and shine a light on the need to further and appropriately define where the City gets off on the violation of my 1st ammendment rights.

Robert Stanford
Candidate for Modesto City Council Seat 1
http://www.myspace.com/stanford4modesto

Robert - You might consider asking the police department how many people they have given tickets to for dancing.

The answer is zero, zip, and nada. Although after seeing you at the council meetings I might have to drop a line to the fashion police.

They don't ticket people for dancing Robert, they ticket unpermitted bar owners. If you are a bar owner and you want to do dancing, get a permit. Its probably not that difficult.

Why you insist on trying to make this an argument like the one in footloose astounds me. The police don't have a problem with dancing. They have a problem with bars letting underage kids drink (Sin City). The police don't have a problem with DANCING! They have a problem with dance crowds swarming out of clubs getting in to large scale brawls on the streets (Sin City). THE POLICE DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH DANCING ROBERT. They have a problem with irresponsible club owners who only care about their bottom line and not about the good of the community (Need I go on?).

Fortunately for the citizens of Modesto you have expressed your off the wall opinions quite vocally here on Modesto Famous. I don't see you representing anyone for anything anytime soon.

Obviously you missed my point.

Robert Stanford
Candidate for Modesto City Council Seat 1
http://www.myspace.com/stanford4modesto

Wow Stanford nice comeback. I guess Debate is not one of your strengths.

I guess I missed your point as well.

By the way you started to cry foul of racism towards Sin City. Do you still believe that after talking with The Chief? If not then maybe you should retract your statements and choose what you say more carefully.

here are direct quotes from you:

"If I was the owner, I would be pretty flippant to police too. I am sure that another Civil Rights Activist or organization has more than likely advised them, as I would, that this situation would be legally actionable - I would take on the case, counting on settlement for discrimination - as I cited before - black owner, black club, and black genre"

"Personally, I think that the council and the City of Modesto as a whole needs to not only be equal in the justice they are handing out - but they need to really think about the bigot reputation this City has on a Nation Wide scale"

Then you write a statement saying you spoke with The Chief. Do you still think it is Racism on the parts of The Police and The City Council?

its obvious that there must be a need for a hip-hop type of club-but i dont think any businessman in his right mind would attempt this.besides dealing with local politics the overhead to properly staff a business that caters to a 20something crowd+liability would be to expensive.having to staff 20 good bouncers that wont get a bar owner in a lawsuit would be tough.but on the other side i think the police dept has turned the club situation downtown into an overtime party for its officers.when i goto to clubs in san francisco i dont find police standing around waiting for something to happen-they are on patrol and if something does happen they use thier radios for backup.so who will have the leadership to find a happy medium?

I believe that it looks bad - that is what I was trying to say -

Robert Stanford
Candidate for Modesto City Council Seat 1
http://www.myspace.com/stanford4modesto

I did not mean to imply that I felt the City Council or the Police Department were racist. I meant to point out that I feel this makes them look like they are from a far off view.

Wow, I really like it here.

Robert Stanford
Candidate for Modesto City Council Seat 1
http://www.myspace.com/stanford4modesto

Look Mr. Stanford I am sure you are a stand up guy and are very passionate in your beliefs and I respect that about anyone whether I agree with them or not, but you do make it sound like the Police Dept and the Council are biased against Minority owned or operated establishments and/or genre's of music. That place broke the law and the terms of their Permit and finally their Suspension. Also if it is true about them not purchasing their alcohol from Distributors and buying it at Costco and other places that is a huge no no.

You say that your point was that the city should take into consideration about how they will be perceived from "Far Away" but you clearly state that YOU would advise the owners of Sin City to take legal action the city using "Discrimination" as a case for a lawsuit. And then you clearly state that the City Council is NOT being equal and fair in the justice they hand out and use the word "Bigot".

I for one could care less what people in Indiana, New York or any other state thinks of us. We live here not them. I believe the Modesto City Council has always been overly conservative as well as the Police Department no matter the skin color of a business owner or the type of music. They don't exactly have a track record for progressive thinking.

I think it is great to stand for something but it is also a good idea to look at the facts before "jumping to a conclusion" that could help to fuel anger and resentment.

I for one could care less about someones skin color, I just care about having a City Council and a Police Department that enforce the Law. Hopefully you do as well even if it is a Law you don't agree with.

I did not want their entire permit revoked in this way. I wanted them to be cited and punished for breaking the laws. It is my understanding that they are not being treated equally - Maybe I am wrong - I very well could be - I don't know enough about the other clubs - but I have studied the reports from the police as well as Sin City's reports.

I worry that because of their venue - they are having their permit revoked, even before the "new ordinance" rules of the downtown area have been finalized.

Yes, I understand that they broke the law. But I would have rather had them cited and worked with. I feel that the City gave up on them. And maybe that was the appropriate thing to do. I, personally, would have preferred them to be continually cited, even if to the point that they could not, or would not pay the fines, and therefore lost their permit because of that.

I am not convinced, objectively, that this was not a matter of discrimination. Now I am not saying, or arguing that it is, I just am not convinced.

Bottom line - I did not want to see them lose their permit. Even if they brought this on themselves.

I do care what people far away think. I often cite Riverbank as an example. A mis-understood example.

Robert Stanford
Candidate for Modesto City Council Seat 1
http://www.myspace.com/stanford4modesto

first of all, if a restaurant has a "47" license anyone can come into their establishment at any time and at any age, but , they have to serve food all the time, many of the new clubs in the downtown area dont serve food. thats not following the rules. there are only 3 clubs downtown that have a "48" licenses,this allows them to serve alcohol without serving food, copper ,speakeasy and fat cat, every one else that sells alcohol and dosent sell food is breaking the law, many of them for a long time. timeoceanlesssincityten didnt actually break the law having minors inside, unless they were drinking alcohol. so,was the law broken by underage drinking or by not serving food?

It was my understanding that they had upgraded their liquor license in such a way that they were not a "47" - the police made a big deal about the two minors, and I do believe that they were cited for this as well - even though, Sin City said that they were not open yet - the police said that technically they were -

It is my understanding that SinCity no longer operating under the "47".

Robert Stanford
Candidate for Modesto City Council Seat 1
http://www.myspace.com/stanford4modesto

I had been thinking about writing a quick blog on the legalities of 47s and 48 licenses. Its pretty complicated to be honest, but I am going to try to explain what is going on here in Modesto.

Here are the basics: a 47 is a restuarant license. What this means is that the intent of your business is to be primarily a restuarant, but you also have the right to sell full liquor. The legal requirement is that ATLEAST 50% OF YOUR REVENUE HAS TO BE FOOD. If you have less than 50% of your revenue in food then you are in violation. This is another major point of contention with Sin City as they haven't generated 50% of their revenue from food for at least a year. I am not positive, but I believe this is one of the things that the ABC has written up Sin City for, but as was stated at the Council Meeting, the ABC will not be finalizing any of the violations until after the new year.

Due to the food restrictions this makes 48 licenses (Copper Rhino, Speakeasy, Fat Cat, Palladium) far more valuable than 47 licenses. They are also much more difficult to get. 48s are therefore far more costly as well costing usually between 25K-100K depending on the license restrictions grandfathered in. 47s usually run in th 10K to 30K range.

There are some restuarants downtown that do entertainment that exceed the 47 guidelines, like Galleto's, Aqua Shi, and Heros. There are also some 47s whose food revenues are somewhat questionable (Banana Joes and Sports Bar) that seem to depend on their bars for the majority of their revenues. The difference between Banana Joes / Sports Bar and Sin City is that at least the first two are playing lip service to the law, while Sin City just seemed to ignor it.

The person who stated that Sin City was no longer operating under a 47 is mistaken. Due to license concentration laws the ABC won't allow any more 48 licenses in downtown Modesto. I don't see how they managed to change it over. If someone knows for sure they were able to do that then I apologize because I am mistaken. If they were able to do it they earned themselves a bunch of money just in equity on the value of the license itself.

With the revenue restriction comes an advantage to having a 47 license and that is you can have under 21s in the building. This is because you have a restuarant. Most 47 licenses that operate with some mode of entertainment have ABC restrictions on the licenses themselves that don't allow under 21s in the building after 10PM. I believe this is the rule that was broken by Sin City that PD is talking about. Some licenses don't have that restriction (ie Sports Bar), but this has to do with grandfathered in licenses without restrictions. Generally the older the license, the less the restrictions.

Techincally 47 licenses aren't supposed to have major entertainment (ie bands and DJs), but I beleive this is a very old interpertation of the law. From an economic standpoint it makes no sense to not allow restuarants to do entertainment. If all the 47s were forced to drop their entertainment this would reduce downtown entertainment options by about 50%, which would cost our city dearly in terms of jobs, quality of life and tax revenues. When the new entertainment ordinence is written these questions will be answered and the 47s should be safely allowed to operate.

I hope that answered some questions, but it probably just made things more complicated.

When you look at the license question the situation with Sin City is the same. A law is written in black and white, to have a 47 you need to be a restuarant, at least serve enough food to make it look like it was POSSIBLE that you could make 50% of your revenues from food. Sin City never did that. Its just another example of how they failed to follow the rules and another argument for taking their permits from them.

Thank you very much for writing that - I know that took a great deal of effort and I certainly do appreciate it.

That gives me a very good primer to look into this aspect a bit more.

Robert Stanford
Candidate for Modesto City Council Seat 1
http://www.myspace.com/stanford4modesto

anybody try to order a meal at banana joes or the sports bar? you will need more than lip service to get something to eat, this is a insult to all the small family owned restaurants that serve breakfast lunch and dinner in this big box corporate run town.why cant everyone live by the same rules?

Where is the ABC? - Not in the Central Valley....at least not with an expedient citation for anyone here....

Robert Stanford
Candidate for Modesto City Council Seat 1
http://www.myspace.com/stanford4modesto